LAND FORCES
Comments (16)
I’m sure someone has thought of this already but the 5.7 FN seems like a reasonable choice. Lightweight as to be able to carry a reasonable load out and with armor piercing potential when used in long guns. Just my two cents
Bo Bolin at 8:07 PMInteresting. 243, creedmores?
Dan at 12:11 AMChange from 5.56 to 25-45 Sharps! It only takes a barrel change and that round only has a 7" drop at 300 meters! It is a hard hitting round at 87 grain and up, it will definitely take an assailant down in one hit! The DoD should take a serious look at it.
Everett at 12:17 PMWell, it’s not that Tungsten is “rare” necessarily, rather it is not mines as vigorously as it could be. England just reopened a mine in Dartmoor that has been shuttered since WWII. It is mined in large quantities in China (the largest extractor in the world) . But it can be found in large quantities in Canada, England, and I am sure it’s in Alaska and the lower 48 as well. We just haven’t “looked” for it because it was so cheap to trade with willing partners. The US has a 150,000 ton reserve and we continue to import it. If it became the main ammunition element, we undoubtedly would start to look for our own supply.
Jaybe at 9:26 PM"5.62"????93NJSK
Jim at 6:56 PMWhy are the Army and the Marines choosing different rifles?
John Ahlstrom at 3:50 PM
Just put a coating on the bullet to make it penetrate .....
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water
American armed forces don't need to pay to develop a new service weapon. The M-14 works just fine, no matter what MacNamara thought. What's more, when you're armed with an M-14, you won't need no teenage queen.
Les at 11:34 PM
“everyone from Russia and China, to Hezbollah” and the Islamic State is employing advanced armor that “risks making the 5.56 round essentially obsolete.”
= pure stupidity, both 5.56x45 M855A1 EPR and 7.62x51 M80A1 EPR do NOT penetrate LVL4 ceramic composite armor.
BOTH 5.56x45 M995 AP and 7.62x51 M993 AP do penetrate it. But require rare tungstencarbide. This means a standart issue round CANNOT be made to magically pierce LVL4.
Even 7.62x51 M80A1 loaded to extreme pressure with 3400fps (instead of 3000-3100) resulting in 4525Joule does NOT pierce LVL4 at all.
So with a standart issue (steel penetrator) round, actually 5.56x45 has the advantage aganist armor.... because it has 1/3rd the recoil, and 10+ rounds per mag, resulting in higher % hit propability at unarmored areas. Also the rifle is lighter and shorter for the same barrel lenght.
Also armor is really small afterall, it just covers the heart and lungs, aiming a few inches further down gives you a really big target of stomache+hip+upper legs. That few inches save MILLIONS of dollars spend in tungstencarbide (and tungsten mines would be empty after a few years of war).
And afterall the armor is presented basicly ONLY at point blank range which happens extrem rarely. At normal range ANY sane combatant will only present the head and rifle behind thick cover, and with such a small target making 7.62x51 a POS with its high recoil. If you want to pierce LVL4 with a steel round you need to go to .50bmg or maybe .338LM is enough but that would be a complete waste in 95% of actual combat, and just give immense disadvantages, also result in just like 60rounds to carry... propably even less when counting in the immense weight of the rifles.
And btw 5.56x45 gives you 210 rounds instead of 100, drastically increasing fire superiority which can save lifes when ambushed.
Also because 7.62x51 is an aerodynamic potato, it literally only has nearly the same supersonic (supression) range as 5.56x45...
And has HALF the energy/recoil efficiency, which is incredible poor.
The main flaw of 5.56x45 (just like 7.62x51) is its shape, which makes it unaerodynamic and perform much less than it could.
So 5.56x45 has to go, but not against a stupid bulky 7.62 or 6.5 which reduce fire superiority and increase recoil drastically. Rather an aerodynamic 5.8 to 6mm CT.
BTW in therms of lethality at range, 5.56x45 M855A1 EPR does penetrate TWO LVL3a kevlar panels at past 760meter and remains lethal... Also atleast one at 1000m. All "300m" claims are absolute nonsensical and plain stupid.
At 400m it equals getting shot by 9mm point blank range. At 640m /700y it equals .380 apc at point blank range.
I'd like to see the .243 Winchester studied as a potential replacement cartridge. It would make a strong contender, with its light recoil, high ballistic efficiency, and lethality. That or a .30 caliber with a shorter combat range (which is appropriate for an individual battle rifle) a la the .300 Blackout. Longer range weapons such as SAWs could use a .243 with it's larger case, while the battle rifle could use a smaller cased 7mm -.30 cal. Lots of good options exist, and it is time for a nex-gen caliber.
Luke at 9:24 PMI wonder if the .224 Valkyrie will come in to play here, it arguably makes the most sense depending on terminal ballistic testing and SBR testing as well
Nathan at 6:12 PMThe line about making it the squad weapon, carbine, designed marksman, and medium machine gun right at the end was the same goal they had made for the M14 back in the 50s. Army please stop recycling bad ideas. Get a couple rednecks give them a million bucks and watch the wonderful options come forward. We keep getting these over paid nerds that didn't grow up hunting and shooting push forward with small arms ideas and they don't realize a medium machine gun isn't a good carbine. What makes one great makes the other terrible. And being able to magically change a weapon by swapping out barrels, stocks, and such "m18/m17 pistol" does mean a damn thing when you only actually issue one set up per system. Plus it reduces overall durability. So 5.56 or similar round for general troops. 7.62 if fighting in mountain ranges. And a dedicated squad automatic that doesn't automatically convert into a sniper, toaster and telephone. Kiss Keep it simple stupid
Nick at 11:59 PMYou keep saying 7.62x51. Which is .308. I think you are trying to say 7.62x39 which is the AK47 round. Because 308 WILL penetrate ceramic armor but has pretty good amount of recoil. And I have seen 5.56 go Thru ONE panel but not 2 of them. Even green tip (steel core) won’t penetrate 2 panels. But I never really understood why we use 5.56 in the first place. Because it’s basically a .22 caliber round under extreme pressure. What is needed is a heavier bullet. If there was a good high velocity heavy grain round. Back in WWII we used just about every round ever made in numerous types of rifles. However. With the 308 and the 30-06 which are both very good rounds, you get high velocity heavy rounds. But you also have more weight for the soldier, more recoil, and less rounds in the magazine. But if someone could develop a high capacity 308 round that could be tamed I think that would be our enemies demise. 308 is a long range high velocity flat trajectory perfect round. That’s why it’s used and one of the most popular rounds for hunting. It’s able to kill anything that’s huntable in the United States. But if you were to fill a 30 Round magazine with it, and soldiers typically carry about 8-10 maybe 12 mags on their vests, it becomes a lot of weight. Which will fatigue the soldiers quickly. That’s why I say if somehow we could re-develop that round so it’s not so heavy. Whether it’s to shorten the casing but have a hotter powder or somehow shrink the length of the bullet. But have the same weight grain. Or just develop a new round altogether like a Heavy grain .40 but make it longer and pop it in a rifle casing. I don’t know. But I agree. Something needs to be done. I know somewhere out there, there is a perfect high velocity round that can be developed into a rifle round that can be light weight (to carry) and have the power to punch Thru several ceramic plates of armor and yet be able to have 30 rounds in a magazine, Someone that does R&D can invent this mystery, magical round. If I had the tools I could develop this round I’m sure. It may take me a while but eventually I could make a round like we need. I’ve been involved in firearms for over 30 years. Amd I used to reload but since I have moved to where I am now I am unable to do this. I don’t have the equipment anymore.
Qhorse13 at 12:49 AM
Agree with Nick. Much time and money has been wasted on Swiss Army Knife solutions. Close combat weapons are not sniper rifles nor machine guns. The Coast Guard LW15 .499 Leitner Wise is a prime example.
If you study the bullet weight versus energy figures is that speed is more of a factor than weight. If you double the weight of a projectile for a given velocity you only double the energy. However, if you double the velocity of a projectile for a given weight, the energy is multiplied by a factor of four.
http://www.riflesintheuk.com/cartridges.htm
Why is the Army always do far behind on these issues as they pertain to the infantryman? I jumped the M16 in Vietnam and was plagued by jams. But the lethality of the round was also an issue. And whether I could carry 150 rounds eith sn M14 and 300 with an M16 was not an issue either. If the lack of lethality of the bullet meant that you fired s r round burst rather than s single lethal shot, where is that so called weight advantage?
Bill at 8:02 AMBug my biggest bitch is that cermaic levrl four body armor has been around for more than a decade now. Why did it take so long to question thd lethality of the 223 round when itbis nos available to civilians?
This is incompetence at the very top. Period. Maybe thd decision makers could get out therd and shoot the damn round.